The Space: Mental Health And Wellbeing - Episode Three (Podcast)

In this insightful episode of The Space podcast, our host Emma Dennis sits down with Chris Brennan, a Legal Director in our Public Procurement team, to explore the realities of living and working as a neurodivergent individual. Chris shares his personal journey of discovering his neurodivergence later in life, reflecting on early signs, the impact on his legal career, and the unique strengths neurodivergent people bring to the workplace.

Listeners will hear candid stories about overcoming challenges, the importance of self-acceptance, and how understanding neurodiversity can transform both professional and personal wellbeing. The conversation also tackles misconceptions, the value of diversity and inclusion, and practical advice for neurodivergent individuals considering a career in law.

This episode is a must-listen for employers and employees to improve and raise awareness for mental health and invisible disabilities in the workplace to creating more inclusive spaces.

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Welcome to series three of The Space Podcast, the place where we dive into the stories, voices and ideas shaping a more inclusive workplace at Gowling WLG.

Emma Dennis: I'm your host, Emma Dennis, and today we're diving into a topic that's widely misunderstood neurodiversity. Today we'll be exploring the lived experiences, the challenges, and the triumphs of navigating work as a neurodivergent person and what true inclusion really looks like. I'm joined by Chris Brennan, legal director in our Commercial IT and Outsourcing team in Birmingham, who's here to share his story and insights.

Chris, thank you so much for being here with me today. Before we start to talk about wellbeing and disability, I wanted to find out a little bit more about your role at the firm. As I mentioned, you're a legal director in our Commercial IT and Outsourcing team in Birmingham. Can you tell me a little bit about the type of law that you practice?

Chris Brennan: Sure. I practice public procurement law. So, I advise on the body of rules which regulates public spending, government, public sector and utility sector contracting, including outsourcing. And the way those rules work is that they require contracts which supply goods, services and construction projects to government and to the public sector to be competitively tendered. That might sound straightforward, but there are actually lots of rules in play and lots of grey areas too. And yet, public procurement is huge business.

In fact, it accounts for roughly four hundred billion pounds worth of UK public spending annually. I advise government bodies as customers, and also, we advise suppliers to government who naturally are always going to want to make sure that they have a fair chance of competing for and winning government contracts. Now I'm both a fee earner and a knowledge lawyer, so my role isn't just a fee earning one. Public procurement is a fast paced and developing area of law, and so I support our teams with the knowledge side of procurement.

There's quite a lot of that and develop and maintain our know how. Since Brexit it's been all change as well because the UK, as we know, has moved away from the EU and with it from the previous EU-based Procurement Law regime, which was basically designed to promote cross-border contracting across the EU and has instead adopted its own rulebook, which still requires competitive tendering for public contracts, but with a much more UK centred set of priorities in mind.

Emma: And did you always know you wanted to be a lawyer?

Chris: No. In fact, right through school, my preferred career was architecture. I'd wanted to be an architect from very early on. But one day that bubble burst when I attended a school careers fair where an architect came and spoke about the profession to a bunch of schoolboys. Now, I can remember that day very clearly, because I'd made a beeline for that particular speaker. So keen was I to hear about what he had to say about architecture as a career. And was right at the front of the queue. But what surprised me was that he was really, really negative about it. And he basically tried to just turn people off pursuing architecture as a career altogether. Now, looking back, my suspicion is that he had issues going on in his own job, and was completely the wrong person to be plugging it at a school careers fair. But there we go. Anyway, that turned me away from architecture.

So, as things turned out, I ended up graduating in Classics, Latin and Greek. By which point I was considering law but hadn't completely made up my mind about that. After graduation, I taught English as a foreign language in Italy for two and a half years. Yeah, during which time I actually made the firm decision to go into law thereafter, and use the wages from that to save up for my conversion course because I hadn't done a law degree.

Emma: Oh, fantastic. You've shared with me that that your neurodivergent and this is something that you realise later in life. What were some of the early signs or experiences that led you to that realisation?

Chris: Everything I'm about to say comes from my experience over my lifetime, so some of it dates back to when I was a small child, five or six. So first, I've always really struggled with social interaction. I'm basically incredibly introvert. I find social small talk incredibly hard in social situations. I often try to mask that, but never very successfully because cracks inevitably soon appear. And it isn't that I don't want to be social, it's just that I really, really struggle with it. Secondly, I tend to take things literally and I find it hard to spot. For example, sarcasm from people, find it hard to read body language and so on. At the same time, I'm very sensitive to how others are feeling as well as how I'm feeling, and I really feel emotion quite strongly, which might be surprising for someone who is neurodivergent but is actually quite common. Generally, I tend to bottle that up until, that is, I'm alone at school. I tended to cope, as it were, by, well, daydreaming, transporting myself off into my own fantasy world, almost. I tended to do that if I wasn't interested in a particular thing. So, for example, I recall one time being much more interested in the guy changing the bulb on the lamppost outside the classroom than on the maths lesson that I was supposed to be concentrating on. And I got told off for daydreaming on countless occasions throughout life. I've held a limited number of interests, but the interests I have had and have, those are interesting, which I tend to be deeply interested, really interested, even obsessive sometimes. So that's another kind of quite common trait in someone who is neurodivergent.

What else? Yes. I've never been great at multitasking and plate spinning. Lots of coinciding demands which might make people think, well, why the hell is he a lawyer anyway? Instead, I'm a total completer finisher and tend to be unhappy with any kind of second best or half baked, half completed job, or with things done in a rush or in pressurised conditions. So, I was never particularly well, for example, to exams. I also struggle with hypersensitivity. So sensory processing for example in really noisy settings. So, pubs, bars, crowded restaurants, I can't pick out what individual people are actually saying unless I lip read, even if they're standing right next to me. Instead, I hear the whole noise of the room. All that loud chatter, clattering of plates, glasses, whatever. Music as just one big cacophony. I also have issues with physical hypersensitivity, so I can't wear heavy clothes and tight-fitting shoes. I tend to need, for example, to keep my lower legs cool. Otherwise, they itch so badly that it just prevents me from sleeping. People think it's really odd that I wear sandals in winter, but that's basically why. So, all of those features are things that we know are often found in individuals who are neurodivergent, and in particular, those on the autism spectrum.

Emma: Yeah, I resonate with a lot of the things that you've just mentioned, particularly the one where you mentioned about being more interested in the bulb being changed outside. I remember it was a GCSE exam and there was a duck out of the window with ducklings, and I focused on that and that's that was all I was interested in for the whole for most of that exam it was like that. That's more interesting than anything else. And a lot of the other things that you've said resonate with my experience.

When you look back at your career with your new perspective, can you identify any areas of work that you struggled with that were actually probably not due to understanding your neurodivergence?

Chris: Absolutely. I've struggled in lots of areas, and until relatively recently, I was never really sure why there were issues, actually. So, an example is unpredictability. Now that's the arch enemy of neurodivergent person like me. We want to know what we're going to be doing at a particular time. So, if I've planned to be at work or at home or at the supermarket or on holiday or whatever on a given day, or at a particular time, having that plan suddenly kiboshed can be really upsetting. I mean, really upsetting. So, for example, in law, in legal practice, the unpredictable hours of a corporate transaction, for example, deal off, deal back on. Pens down. Get yourself to London this minute for about of all night working. Those things are all just hugely, hugely stressful for me early in my career. In fact, I just didn't get why I found that kind of thing so incredibly hard. You know, literally to the point of being petrified. And yet others seem to embrace it.

Emma: Do you think that understanding your neurodivergence, has that changed the way that you approach your career?

Chris: Yes, it did, and in a big way. So realising that I was neurodivergent showed me that there was and is a genuine, specific reason why I was experiencing all these various challenges. And what's more, a reason not to be ashamed of neurodivergence in whatever form, whether it's autism, classically so-called attention deficit or whatever. Isn't a pathology a neurodivergent person isn't disordered. Their brain is simply wired differently from that of the majority of the population. Every neurodivergent person is different, and it's probably true. For that reason, I suspect that no one ever understands a neurodivergent person as completely as that person himself does. Now, when I realised all this, which was, relatively speaking, very late on in life, I was able then to adjust my way of working in a way that recognised it. So, I no longer, for example, felt that I should put myself in the front line of the corporate support crowd. Instead, I majored much more on public sector work and procurement. Still such an important area as we know, but with far fewer of the triggers that had so stressed me earlier on in my career in law, and I realised that I just wasn't cut out, basically, for the constant plate spinning and the embracing of unpredictability and other huge stresses like that that go with many senior positions in law, as well as doubtless senior positions in other in other professions. And having recognised that, I suddenly found that I could reposition my career aspirations as well. So, whereas in my earlier career I'd always aspired to partnership, for example, I recognised late on that that wasn't going to be for me. And so, I no longer did so. And to be quite honest, I'm so much happier for it now.

Emma: And why is it important for you to talk about Neurodivergence and your experience?

Chris: Well, neurodivergence affects roughly one in every 100 individuals in the UK. We know that there are quite a lot of us. I'm very unlikely to be the only one who has found myself in my position, struggling with certain aspects of life and work and perhaps unsure why. So, what I'd say is, if in doubt, check it out. Even if anything I say resonates with you, it could make all the difference between finding yourself, at times pretty stressed out and perhaps even miserable, and instead feeling happy, valued, and ultimately fulfilled. My journey to revealing and accepting my neurodivergence has made an incredible difference. It has to be said. Not just to my work, but in my whole life.

Emma: Thank you, Chris. We're going to take a short break now, and then when we're back, we'll hear more about Chris's experiences.

So, welcome back to part two. So, Chris, we're going to kick off with some quick fire questions to get to know you a little bit more. So first up what is the most used app on your phone?

Chris: Google Maps. I've always loved maps. To me, studying a map is virtual travel. So, when I look at a map, I can basically go anywhere and feel like I'm there.

Emma: I love Google Maps too. It's probably one of the most used on my phone.

Chris: Yeah. Oh. Street view.

Emma: Perfect. Also, and I don't know if this is a neurodivergent thing or just me. If I'm going somewhere I haven't been before, I have to Google Map, and then I have to street view on my way there as well.

What's one word your friends would use to describe you?

Chris: Atypical.

Emma: What's a small thing that always makes you smile?

Chris: Ah, my two dogs turning absolutely feral whenever next doors cat strolls nonchalantly across the garden.

Emma: And if you could instantly master one skill, what would it be?

Chris: Playing the piano to concert level.

Emma: Do you play the piano at all at the moment?

Chris: A bit, but not very well.

Emma: Is your bed mode right now?

Chris: Oh, yes. I couldn't possibly get through the day knowing that it wasn't. That really would be most distressing.

Emma: What's your dream holiday destination?

Chris: The Italian lakes, without doubt. It's just a shame it's gone all George Clooney, though.

Emma: What's your go to karaoke song?

Chris: Ooh. Good one. Well, great music doesn't end at Dover. I've always been a Europhile, and there's been some seriously good stuff coming out of Europe over the decades. My personal favourite is a hit from 1985 called Tiento by the Italian band Matia Bazar. Now, apparently Freddie Mercury loved that track too, and so much so that he actually went to Italy to see them. So, I definitely head to the nearest mic to bang that one out.

Emma: I'm going to have to look that up. I'm definitely going to look it up after today. Some more quick ones. Sweet or Savoury?

Chris: Savoury, definitely.

Emma: What's the best sandwich?

Chris: Probably the New York Club from the Greek Deli on the corner of Deansgate and John Dalton Street in the middle of Manchester.

Emma: Wow.

Chris: Yes, I thought I knew what a sandwich was until I tried one of those and then got transported to a whole new dimension.

Emma: I need to go to Manchester now. What's your favourite smell?

Chris: Favourite smell? Ooh. Wood smoke, I'd say. Needs to be in autumn. On the bright, crisp, cool day. Wood smoke at any other time of year, just doesn't feel right somehow.

Emma: Yeah. Oh, a nice, crisp autumn day is good. Text or call?

Chris: Text. It gives me the chance to think about how I'm going to reply before I actually have to do so.

Emma: Sunshine or snow?

Chris: Sunshine. But definitely not hot hot. I can't abide snow because it throws society out of out of kilter, which I don't get on with at all.

Emma: Me too. Are you more an introvert or extrovert?

Chris: Introvert with knobs on.

Emma: Pineapple on pizza. Yes or no?

Chris: No way. Giuseppe. I've got huge respect for the Italians, and this idea mortally offends them.

Emma: Music or silence when working?

Chris: Quiet music, preferably classical. My hearing aids, which I wear to of connect with my phone and let me listen to music in stereo through them. One advantage of modern hearing aids. The other is that they actually help me hear.

Emma: Brilliant. Right. So some more questions I've got for you. I wanted to start with this one. What do you think the biggest misconception is about neurodivergent individuals?

Chris: That we're weirdos. Basically odd, offbeat, sometimes rude, standoffish, not worth bothering with. Not to be taken seriously. Now that isn't surprising. It's human nature. If, after all, 99 out of 100 people display neurotypical traits and the 100th comes across differently, it's completely predictable that the normal label will be given to the vast majority. And this is why I think the diversity and inclusion conversation is so important, because that conversation says that all one hundred, not just the 99, should be accepted and valued for what we are and for what we can offer. And yet, despite this, society at large still tends to favour conventionality. To prefer normal. And now again, that's perfectly predictable. It's always going to be much easier to, in inverted commas, read the neurotypical 99 than the neurodivergent 100^th person. I'm sure we're all aware that there are some loud voices in the world today who would silence the whole diversity and inclusion conversation. So, for those reasons, I hope are clear from this podcast, we mustn't let that happen.

Emma: And what strengths do you think your neurodivergence brings to the workplace?

Chris: Well, I've always been, as I've said, an obsessive completer finisher, never satisfied with sending out a piece of work with the firm's name on it until I'm happy that it's the best it can possibly be. I do work very analytically, and I will always try to find ways into the darkest corners of a document or an argument. So, the result can be that , if a particular argument or allegation against a particular client needs to be countered, then the chances are I'll probably be able to devise a way to do so that is reasoned, credible, and respectable. I'm also a keen draftsperson, and I always have been. One of the great things about being a lawyer, especially one who works with contracts, is that you have the gift of being able to make words work to right value. How you draft and what you write can ultimately add value to a business, to the business of a client. And I think that's an incredibly powerful thing to be able to do. And I feel privileged to be part of it.

Emma: Before today, you mentioned to me that you'd had mental health challenges in the past, and that had led to some time off work. Could you share a bit about your experience of mental ill health?

Chris: That's right. I have. In my earlier days, I used to get very stressed at work, largely as a result of the sorts of unpredictability, for example, that I talked about earlier. Now, back then, there wasn't really any conversation around diversity and inclusion at all. Even less neurodiversity. And there was no support. But I somehow got through, even though there was a point many years ago now when I very nearly dropped out of law altogether and actually went and took independent careers advice. But shortly after that, I managed to pull myself back together and after that I joined Wragge & Co as the firm then was, and that was a move which made all the difference for me for the first time, really. I felt valued, properly valued for who I was and for what was on my CV. Notwithstanding how stressful the history behind that CV had been, the only time I've ever actually had to take time out to depressurise was fairly recently, actually about three years ago, when I was providing a huge amount of big ticket procurement support to a client who, well, to be quite candid, wasn't adequately resourced either, with enough time to do what it needed to do or with the staff that it needed. So as a result, a lot of work too much, as it turned out, came my way and the pressure overwhelm me. These were huge procurements that I was having to grapple with. And what I was seeing was a return of some of the stresses that that I spoke about earlier on, in which are the direct result, really, of my type of neurodivergence the ones that stem from unpredictability, insufficient time to complete the job to a standard that I considered good enough chronic erosion, interpersonal time, and so on. However, the work ultimately got done with the help of my really, really great colleagues, and my few weeks of sign off that I had were all that was ultimately needed for me to reboot.

Now, what really surprised me, actually about that was just how suddenly the tipping point came. I just woke up one morning and I just thought, I can't do this. But with the correct approach, getting straight on to it, going to see the doctor and just tackling it there and then meant that I could get back on track within a few weeks, and I haven't had a repeat of that experience since.

Emma: So important to recognise, isn't it, when it's when something isn't working and then get the right support?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely.

Emma: What advice would you give to other neurodivergent people who are maybe considering a career in law?

Chris: Well, there will be others like me, I'm sure, who may be considering a career in law but are unsure of whether it'll suit them or where the pressure points might be. So, I want to send a message that, first of all, it's not bad to be you, even if it might look or feel as if you're the odd one out because of who or what you are, nor does it in any way disqualify you from law or make you unsuitable for a role within it. If you do find that certain aspects of legal practice simply aren't for you, don't be afraid to acknowledge and accept that. What's really important is that you're happy in what you do and have always believed that when you're happy in what you do, you're then switched on, interested, and ultimately productive.

Emma: And if everybody listening could do one thing differently that would enhance your experience of the workplace as a neurodivergent person, what would that be?

Chris: I think just keep in mind all the time that every one of us is different. Each of us has our strengths, our vulnerabilities, things we're really engaged with, things we're not so engaged with, things we find stressful. Similarities, differences in traits, differences in appearance and so on. I think we mustn't forget that the workplace is a microcosm of the wider world. It's a place where we find an exciting spectrum of humanity. We can make a difference to the world. We can make a better world by recognising, embracing and celebrating the rich diversity within it. And so, we can make a better workplace in exactly the same way.

Emma: And finally, what's the best thing that's happened to you this week?

Chris: Oh, seeing my wife and my son and daughter sharing a joke and collapsing on the floor with laughter. I was outside at the time, so I have no idea what the joke was. I was just watching them through the window. I dread to think.

Emma: Oh how lovely though. A massive thank you, Chris, for joining me today and for sharing your story and your insights.

Chris: My pleasure.

Emma: We'll be back with a new episode to get to know more talented people here at Gowling WLG. Thank you everyone for listening and have a wonderful week.

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